SNG wiz - the mysterious ICM machine? Effiency and improving! Questions!

[MarcJLH]

Hi everyone!


My name is Marc and I was a subscriber to DTB in 2010 and I loved Greg's ABC SNG series. Gave me a lot insight and another perspective to play the game! Awesome work!
Now here's ny topic!

I always thought about buying a copy of SNG wizard but I wasn't never sure enough of doing it- Of course, I tried the trial version, created my PBJ for 9 mans but I had to admit to myself that I was overwhelmed by the power(s) of this tool and didn'T know how to use it at all.

Yesterday all of the sudden I bought SNG wizard just because I want to lift up my 6 Max SNG game. I also started to create a PBJ sheet for 6 Max SNGs STTs with 4 man left thinking of a typical Pokerstars blind level like 50/100 because in my experience due to this blind level most of the time there are only four players (including hero) left (in turbos)
(at the low stakes which I still play for exercise and comfort zone purposes)

If the interest persists I could upload my sheet - just because I have the feeling I have something done wrong. I'm not really sure about the push ranges that wiz spit out - even more i'm unsure if I nailed down the right values into SNG wiz. For example I started with a 0.15 edge and a BB'S calling range of 17.9 % and SB'S calling range up to 12% because in "real life" I felt that those typical bad players - even if the call pretty wide with their ace rag hands - don't call that wide - even on the low limits. But I could be wrong and as I mentioned: I'm everything but not sure about these values at all...

Another concern: I really would love to nail down this ICM push/fold stuff and I'm very very interested in this quiz feature by wiz. I've visited a lot of poker forums and there are a lot of polarized opinions how to learn effectively with the wiz. Especially when it comes down to the quiz feature - I always read if you tweak the quiz preferences in the right way then this quiz feature can be very useful.

Ok I want to do this - but to be honest - I'm not sure how to tweak it to make it more of a "real life scenario" and not only some theoretical isolated ICM situations which can't be transfered" to the real poker tables. And this is the part where I have to come up with a typical question - sorry for this, i guess you've read a thousand times - but what could be more useful? Reviewing our hands , tweaking and playing around with all the ranges , sorting out special situations for example: 10 BB stack and I'm on the button with K7s - now what should I do? When I should go with this kind of approach - let's say reviewing some of the "real life examples" with real opponents that I actually played with - then I would to try to find common situations like being on the button and try to find out some "general rule" or "pivot point" which helps me to memorize these kind of similar situations.

It'S obvious to me that it isn'T that easy or that all this stuff isn't that static - you can't say : When you are sitting always on the button with 10 BB and you have 78o then you have to push!" I know about this fact - but I feel the big urge to create some kind of "general thumb rules" which could help me to memorize what to do in common situations at all.

I'm sorry for this long thread but this ICM topic really bothers me just because I really want to get a feel for ICM and what to do in different situations - even if I do the recommended move that wiz tells me or not and that's where I have to think about my good ol' days in school! Repeating stuff and doing exercises helped me a lot nail the school stuff down and that's why I think this quiz feature could help me out a lot - but how should I tweak this to get more "real life sceanrios" that don't have this theoretical character which aren'T useful for playing online on the low limits most of the time....

For example: I really want to exercise bubble situations in 6 max sngs turbo on stars - of course, I plug in how many people should show up in this quiz and so on... But I guess there has to be more to fine tune this quiz just to make it more applying to real poker play and not those static ICM ranges or opponent models.

Sorry for this being complex but I really appreciate your help and patience on this topic since this "bothers" me even more just because i paid for SNG wiz and I really want to learn this ICM stuff - even if I know how much work it is to nail this down... I don't want be perfect but I want to get a feel for it - and I really don't know how to apply this, which learning method is more useful... and I don't want to exclude this useful quiz feature which was even a factor that I bought SNG wiz in the end instead of another ICM calculator called "SNG Solver" which I liked more at all - but this quiz feature - in my opinion it can be so useful - but I don't know if there is more to make learning more effectively...

This is where I really need advice by far more experienced players... I'm a passionate poker player player but not really experienced - even I play for a long time.

Sorry for bothering you again - but I really appreciate your advice on this - since I've read a lot of different opinions on how to use SNG wiz in the "real" or at least "more effective" way.

Sorry for my bad english but I'm from Germany

Have a nice sunday!

Best regards,

MarcJLH

PS: I know there are a lot repitions - but sorry, folks! Just this fact should how sleepless my nights really are just because of this haunting ICM scenario! I want to get this hellhound before it gets me

[tallscotuk]

Hi,

Good to see you coming back to DTB. The ABC series is well worth it.

SNG Wiz is a really useful tool once you learn how to use it properly. I will try to help where I can:

You are probably using Wiz properly if you have a PBJ sheet that you are happy with. I am happy to review it and you are more than welcome to upload one. However, I think that both your edge and your ranges are out a little. There are rarely any situations where you need an edge of more than 0.1 and you may consider dropping it again in special situations, eg. UTG with 5BB or even just from later positions. The ranges I use for 9mans are BB 20%/ SB 11%. I dont play many 6 mans but I would expect them to be at least similar if not slightly wider.

The wiz quiz can be useful but you may find that changing the edge you require and the opponents ranges you will be able to find better real life situations. I run through the quiz then check my scores adapting any ranges to see if they are more appropriate. There is not right or wrong thing to study though. It is important to use all the techniques you mentioned in a structured way. You should try and spend 20% of the time you devote to poker purely on study. Maybe you could put together a time table to make sure that you are covering all these different forms of study evenly.

Although poker is not a static game there are situations where the correct move is either shoving or folding any two cards. Recognising these situations is very important. However, it is important to understand that these are the only times static ranges are always useful. Your PBJ chart is a great place to start against unknowns but learning where and how to adapt these ranges is something that just take practice and time.

Just to really screw things up though there are real question marks over the effectiveness of Wiz in tight bubble situations. It is a great tool for really getting to grips with ICM but it is not going to tell you how to play great poker. That just takes time, experience and a lot of hard work.

[MarcJLH]

Thanks for your help and your quick reply.
It would be nice if you could review my PBJ sheet - but to be honest: I will try to renew it immediately just because when I created it last evening I wasn't satisfied at all not only because of the fact that creating my 9 man SNG PBJ sheet is a long time ago. So I watched Greg's videos again, especially episode 3 where he shows creating a PBJ from the ground up. Just to make sure that I won't do the same mistakes again (and I'm pretty sure that I did the PBJ wrong last night) I want you to ask: I thought about starting with blinds of 50/100 and no antes with 5 players (including hero) or should add up all 6 players? The point is this: In my experience from playing 6 max SNGs turbo on the micros by reaching the 50/100 level there are only 5 players or even 4 players (including hero) left.

If I start the sheet should I set the edge to your suggested 0.1 and then dropping down if needed as you mentioned with your 5BB UTG example? What edge do you suggest here?

Your SB and BB calling ranges are a good starting point as well - after reading your post and reevaluating the ranges I would say 22-23 % would do it for the BB in 6Max SNGs. The SB calls slightly wider in 6 max SNGs as well, let's say 14% !?

What do you think? Are these ranges a good starting point at all?

Coming to the the quiz mode:

Is there any possibility to change the edge before I start up another quiz? I know that in the quiz preferences there is the ability to sign a minimum and maximum calling range for villain? Does it make sense to put in here the above mentioned calling ranges like 20 % for the BB and 11 % for the SB - or since I want to play 6 Max SNGs - for example 22-23% for the BB and approx. 14 or 15 % for the SB just to make the quiz more applying to real life micro stakes poker situations? I just would like to add the quiz to my arsenal and use it more frequently.

Sorry for all the questions but I really want to "master" this stuff or at least getting a feel for this model.

I really appreciate your help.

Thanks a lot in advance.

Best regards

Marc

[tallscotuk]

As I dont play the 6 max I dont want to give any bad advice but the ranges you suggest sound reasonable. The PBJ sheet should kick in from 12BBs so I will let you decide which level you feel comfortable starting at. You can prepare a chart with both 4 and 5 players if you feel that these are going to be the most common situations.

Once you have completed a chart you will be able to use the ranges you have to decide what is the most appropriate setting for the quiz. I would not focus too much on the quiz though. It is good to practice and you can play about with different settings but there are lots of other aspects you should be looking at as well.

[MarcJLH]

It takes actually longer than I thought to create this chart from scratch but I have to admit that I also "played" a lot around with SNG wizard - here is something that confuses me:

I've set the edge to your suggested 0.1 with 12 BB UTG (6 Max, 1st: 65 % 2nd: 35% payout structure) and WIZ suggests to push 8% of hands (66+,AJ+,ATs+) with calling ranges from the SB :16.8% and BB 22% !

(Should I put in zero edge - would that make even more sense sincy my first edge 0.15 was quite high?)

i'm not even sure if the Calling Range for the SB is quite high but in my experience in the 1.50s 6max SNGs it's not unusual to get called with KQ off either.

I wanted to be KQ offsuit in the range just my feel is that it's not uncommon situation to get called with a marginal hand like that even if we have 12 BB.

Please let me know what do you think about this calling ranges?

But back to the topic I really wanted to stress.

I summarize up:

Hero has 12 BB UTG and should push 8% of hands ((66+,AJ+,ATs+).

Same scenario but hero has 10 BB : WIZ tells me to push 7.5 % (77+,AJ+,ATs+) !!

I'm confused at all with 10 BB shouldn't be my pushing range a little bit higher therefore the pushing range % of WIZ would have to be a little bit higher, or? Since hero pushes "only" 10BB!

Can the 7.5 % be right or is there anything I'm doing wrong.

By the way: Even it's a tricky topic I sometimes believe that I make the topic and creating the chart much more complicated than it is just because I think too much about - I should even finish the chart and later I can review it and adjust...

What's your thoughts about the above mentioned stuff?

Thanks a lot in advance.

Best regards

Marc

[MarcJLH]

Finally I seem to have finished my PBJ sheet with 5 players left (including hero).
It would be nice if you or the one of the other DTB members could review it - because I'm everything but not sure about all the values that I nailed into this sheet
There is one thing I just want to mention as well concerning the sheet:

As you may notice as hero gets in later positions like the button or the small blind, in many columns which tell me my BB size I didn't really increase the calling ranges of the SB and BB although hero's stack is decreasing. I'm absolutely aware of the fact how important villain calling ranges really are as they determine our shoving range but in this case when I created the sheet, I looked at the SB and BB calling range and I didn't notice that much of real difference of which hands to shove! Yeah there are differences and in some spots they are huge - but in my case I didn't change the calling ranges that much because I always thought what is the SB and BB typical range on these well known micro limits and concerning my feel and my "experience" the calling ranges of villain sitting in the SB or BB won't get much different at all.

I felt better about changing the calling ranges not too much just because of learning purposes because I want to have some kind of static point which I can refer to as I hopefully get advanced in adjusting the ranges at all...

I know there's a lot of repitition by myself but I feel the need to express my thought process during the creation of this sheet - just to make sure that I don't get used to bad habits and making mistakes.

If I assume a "normal bad player" , the typical donk poker style in a fish costume , as there are tons of them on the micros, which I'm going to play, he loves to call for example with his KJ suited. In my feel it doesn't make that much difference if I lift up his calling range when I'm in later positions because most of the time he will call me anyway with KJ suited just because he felt in love with it. When I have 12 BB left of course I have much more fold equity - but how often I experienced a situation where I was on the button and I get called by KJ suited even If I had decent stack between 12 and 10 BB. If they want to call you with KJs they'll do it - they gave stack sizes and positions not that of much credit as they should just because we assume the "normal bad player" as positonal unaware and BB size unaware at all. I don't say that every micro stakes player or "normal bad villain" plays like that but this is my common experience - is even worse on the 6max tables. And when I lift up calling ranges in WIZ I noticed that there is huge difference in what I can shove and what not - but to me that was not that much of the difference at all when I also concerned that I'm going to create a sheet which try to assume ranges that should reflect some kind of average donk player on the micros.

I will take that a little bit further..

Assume we are in the SB and we know that we can push a wide range of hands and WIZ confirms that as well showing up 100 % of hands to push most of the time. I know that should push into the SB most of the time and even when I gave the BB a much wider calling range my shoving range differs slightly but not that hell of a much , of course - but even here I had to think of real life examples: How often experienced a common situation that even I had a 6 to 4 BB stack the BB wasn't able to call me at all - on the counter part the average donk player likes to call all ins with a lot of marginal hands most of the time regardless of information about hero! They have this typical calling range and we all know there favorite cards like KQs , KJs and even KT off! Just because of my feel I thought about a , I will call, "normal bad player loving marginal cards range" that won't change that much even if all variables in the game change rapidly - and in turbos they will especially change faster than sometimes we may want it to. In my feel the average player which I'm going to assume, as well for my learning purposes, has a kind of a static range around Greg's mentioned 20 % up to 30 % range of hands that they'll love and play without thinking about other important facts and variables on the table. For them there's no reason loving KJ suited not anymore just because hero has a smaller stack 2 blind orbits or 10 hands before. KJ suited looks as sexy to them as always - since hero has a smaller stack it's even more tempting to them to go with this or similar kind of hand to war to kick hero out of the game and maybe dating each other after they "donked" to win the SNG or at least they are ITM.

30% calling is a bit huge - even for 6 max games in my opinion - but I looked at the calling range window and slider over and over again and I can't help myself but 20 to maybe 27 % that's the "average donk loving marginal hands range". And it always confirms over and over again.

Anyway... sorry for writing this much! I really appreciate the community's patience and help and I really hope that my sheet isn't that unrealistic or wrong at all...

Thanks for taking the time reading this long thread and going over my spreadsheet which can be downloaded here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/twtp6w9kpy...rs%20Turbo.xls

Of course I'm not a hell of a player but Greg was right: Compiling an own PBJ sheet gives you at least a feel for the whole ICM-model and how strong only one change of one factor can be resulting in different calling and shoving ranges...

But I still wonder how to memorize all this stuff!? Is it experience which will help you out - later when you reach different stages of your poker game and you hopefully advance - that will tell you to fold in this situation just because you look at stack sizes and your opponents and you will know right away: In this spot this is a fold at all - even if you can't do the exact math - but you are able to make this decision in a couple of seconds and then go to the next table which pops up...

I'm looking forward to create the special charts for the 6 Max bubble. As we all know - that's a whole different thing.... *lots of work ahead* +sigh*

Best regards and have a nice upcoming week!

Marc

PS: If you find some native german language in the sheet - pass that and go with the real important stats

[tallscotuk]

The sheet looks the way I would expect it to although I don't have a 6max sheet to compare it to.

When you do find something that looks unusual try different ranges and edges and see how it changes. It is a good way to learn these details.

Try to also understand what the different ranges actually mean. KJs is ranked on pokerstove as the top 6.7%. When you are dealt it you are probably ahead in a 5max game. If I think an aggro button is trying to steal my blinds I would be happy to resteal shove with KJs (depending on reads of course).

Using your sheet 29% is a range of:
22+,A3+,A2s+,KT+,K9s+,QT+,Q8s+,JT,J8s+,T8s+,98s,87 s

and 19% is
22+,A7+,A2s+,KQ,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,T9s

The only difference are the worst raggy off suit A, KJo-JTo and mid SCs. The 10% between the two ranges is made up of only a few combos and the mid SCs are rarely dominated which give them some extra weight in shoving situations.

I would suggest as part of a study session you review a few tournys and see if you how these ranges actually play. Additionally you have some good benchmarks for when you are playing. This will add something else for you to focus on while you are playing.

Keep on working through the ABC series and I am sure you will be on track before too long.

[Emrah]

Marc, I just making a chart too and want to put up, thanks now I know how to put it up thanks to ur thread. Listen one mistake I made when first making my chart shoving 12 bb, is I would forget to give the sb and bb a stack of 12 Bb as well, good luck at the tables