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  1. #1

    Default Meh... ICM, or playing by feel!?

    I know how ICM works, but how do I even program it into my brain to make the right decision all the time?!

    Believe me, I tried, I'll try out some quizzes on SnG Wizard, and I can get 70% of them right, but don't really improve on it.

    Mostly I go by feeling, even though mathematics is my strong point, when playing poker, not much math is going in my head, just glance at the cards I have, the position and stack sizes of other players.

    I do not consider what ranges they have played etc, because how can anyone keep up with that grinding 10+ tables at a time?

    I will fold in many spots where I feel it's a bad idea to risk a large % of my stack and when I am short am highly aggressive.

    When on the bubble and someone is real short and someone else is a big stack, I TRY to not get involved at all, but it still happens, once in a while.

    And then, there are certain spots where I have no clue what to do so I will just fold or push almost randomly.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Meh... ICM, or playing by feel!?

    Hi and welcome to DTB.

    By the sound of things you are a good player who knows what you are doing at the table. That is an important place to get to. The only problem is that better you get the harder it is to make small improvements.

    Quote Originally Posted by cannabinoid View Post
    I know how ICM works, but how do I even program it into my brain to make the right decision all the time?!

    Believe me, I tried, I'll try out some quizzes on SnG Wizard, and I can get 70% of them right, but don't really improve on it.
    70% is a good solid score but those quizzes are only useful as a guide. If you shove QTo but Wiz says you should only shove QTs have you really made a mistake?? Surely it is player dependent when they are that close.


    Quote Originally Posted by cannabinoid View Post
    Mostly I go by feeling, even though mathematics is my strong point, when playing poker, not much math is going in my head, just glance at the cards I have, the position and stack sizes of other players.
    All good poker players know and use maths at the table. Some only use it subconsciously and therefore think they don't.

    To use a different example, if you are crossing the road and you see a car moving in your direction you automatically run various speed time distance calculations in your mind. However, because your mind only tells you if it is safe or not people dont appreciate that they have just used a mathematical equation.

    Few people are naturally good enough with poker maths which is why you should put in the effort to learn it. All it takes is practice and time and you will improve.

    Of course just to make things difficult other players mix it up so you also have to work out lots of other factors but knowing the maths is a very good place to start.

    Quote Originally Posted by cannabinoid View Post
    I do not consider what ranges they have played etc, because how can anyone keep up with that grinding 10+ tables at a time?
    That sounds like a major leak. If you are not able to work out opponents ranges then good players will spot this and take you to pieces. Cut back on the number of tables will help you to improve your game. When you slowly build back up you will be able to consider ranges etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by cannabinoid View Post
    I will fold in many spots where I feel it's a bad idea to risk a large % of my stack and when I am short am highly aggressive.

    When on the bubble and someone is real short and someone else is a big stack, I TRY to not get involved at all, but it still happens, once in a while.

    And then, there are certain spots where I have no clue what to do so I will just fold or push almost randomly.
    It sounds as if you understand the basics and I recommend posting trouble hands on the boards. You will probably find that a lot of the spots you are in are probably just really difficult spots that no one knows how to play. If not hopefully we can help find some more leaks and help improve your game that way.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Meh... ICM, or playing by feel!?

    Quote Originally Posted by tallscotuk View Post
    Hi and welcome to DTB.

    By the sound of things you are a good player who knows what you are doing at the table. That is an important place to get to. The only problem is that better you get the harder it is to make small improvements.
    Thanks for the reply.

    Yes, I am a good player, I was a little superstitious at first, thinking the cards were out to get me sometimes, then I noticed, sometimes when I made bad choices I would suck out, just like other players have done to me, and sometimes I'd run really good, getting multiple 1sts in a row, so I've learned to accept when the deck is cold, because it always heats up again.

    What I'd really want is to be able to beat people consistently with any 2 cards when they are willing to lay down, someday, someday.

    Quote Originally Posted by tallscotuk View Post

    70% is a good solid score but those quizzes are only useful as a guide. If you shove QTo but Wiz says you should only shove QTs have you really made a mistake?? Surely it is player dependent when they are that close.
    Yeah, I had a lot of 'close' ones just like that I lost in the quiz.

    Quote Originally Posted by tallscotuk View Post


    All good poker players know and use maths at the table. Some only use it subconsciously and therefore think they don't.

    To use a different example, if you are crossing the road and you see a car moving in your direction you automatically run various speed time distance calculations in your mind. However, because your mind only tells you if it is safe or not people dont appreciate that they have just used a mathematical equation.

    Few people are naturally good enough with poker maths which is why you should put in the effort to learn it. All it takes is practice and time and you will improve.

    Of course just to make things difficult other players mix it up so you also have to work out lots of other factors but knowing the maths is a very good place to start.
    Indeed, it must be all subconsciously, learning about starting hands, pot odds and drawing hands is very much burned in, hopefully ICM can be 'burned' in the same way, but it is much more complicated than odds and outs.
    Quote Originally Posted by tallscotuk View Post

    That sounds like a major leak. If you are not able to work out opponents ranges then good players will spot this and take you to pieces. Cut back on the number of tables will help you to improve your game. When you slowly build back up you will be able to consider ranges etc.
    Dang, maybe I should consider getting a HUD to assist with that. Thing is how can you pay attention to so many tables at once, besides spotting the regulars, I don't even really see the showdowns while I'm grinding.
    Quote Originally Posted by tallscotuk View Post

    It sounds as if you understand the basics and I recommend posting trouble hands on the boards. You will probably find that a lot of the spots you are in are probably just really difficult spots that no one knows how to play. If not hopefully we can help find some more leaks and help improve your game that way.
    Alright, will start doing that on those hands where I (usually) fold but had considered pushing/calling.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Meh... ICM, or playing by feel!?

    A HUD is an essential tool for any online poker player. Both PT and HEM are great products and I am sure which ever you chose you will be able to make it pay for itself in the long run.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Meh... ICM, or playing by feel!?

    Quote Originally Posted by tallscotuk View Post
    A HUD is an essential tool for any online poker player. Both PT and HEM are great products and I am sure which ever you chose you will be able to make it pay for itself in the long run.
    Cool.

    I'm on the PT trial right now.. I put Att to Steal, Fold BB to Steal and Fold BB to SB Steal on a new line on stats while the PFR, VPIP, and AggrF% also remain.

    Not sure if I need any more kind of info for super turbo 6 max.

    Also I tried to steal more blinds in my last session, I just told myself to try to steal at least once from every person to my left. But most people seem to be calling against this steal attempt and folding to a cbet. Either way deciding to do this helped build up chips and lock in more 1sts!

  6. #6

    Default Re: Meh... ICM, or playing by feel!?

    i have 90-95% in the ICM quiz but today i was on a soft FinalTabel 360 men i fold in some spots like 12bb K4s form the bu.Is the game soft i think is better to fold in some spots against regs it is better to call/push ICM.I had a spot against a supernova in the blinds on a 27 $ SCOOP event he push over my bu raise i open JTs and think a while and callt and he had A4o .I feel he is often light.Trust your instinct sometimes you have to move then trust mathe =)

 

 

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