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  1. #1

    Default Greg Jones - PBJ shove chart into bad AND good players

    Guys,

    Having watched Greg's excellent ABC series, I thought I would create a PBJ shove sheet, but one that tells us what to shove into average bad BB players AND good players.

    I haven't seen anything like this before, so I thought I would give it a go. The chart was easier to create with LP shoves into the BB, on the assumption that average bad players don't call wider than 30%, and good players won't call wider than 40% (if the good player knows that we are ALSO a good player).

    However, I really wasn't sure at all what I should be shoving into good BB players from early position.

    So, I attach the shove sheet and would be grateful for any comments - my brain feels fried and I think I have become confused around good player calling ranges, which thus affects what we should be shoving from LP and EP into these good BB players.

    I would be grateful for your thoughts, but, in particular:

    1) If I am shoving from EP into a good BB player, what range should I put him on to call - I presume QQ+, maybe AKs (if he knows I am good).

    2) I would be grateful for any general thoughts on the calling ranges I attribute in this chart - I feel that I have become totally confused on the ranges - I have probably spent too much time on this and need a break!

    Thanks guys,

    Pagination1
    Attached Files Attached Files

  2. #2

    Default Re: Greg Jones - PBJ shove chart into bad AND good players

    I have been trying to get my head around a chart as well, and have not completed it yet, BUT when I do complete it I was going to filter hem to abount of players, eff blind stacks and positions and see how my chart holds up against my perceived ranges and actual hand ranges.
    i expect that the chart will be a constantly evolving process, as you tweak ranges, the games change (and obviously as you climb higher stakes )
    Is this 9 man? i personally think your edges are quite high (but that is kinda personal preference) i also think your good player call range is quite high, especially from CO with 10+bb (on the 8bb, you have good players calling wider than from the button?)

    any way I will finish my chart over next few days, and then happy to compare and discuss if you want?

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Greg Jones - PBJ shove chart into bad AND good players

    Hi,

    I like your way of thinking here but I think that there is a problem. The reason that a PBJ chart is calculated for both good and bad players together is because it is so difficult to separate them. I am assuming that your calculations are based on a good/bad player sitting in the big blind. The problem is if you calculate your chart for a good player in the BB then the bad player sitting in the SB is not properly accounted for. This is most clear for UTG where you could be shoving in to 6 players. Of course if you are on the Btn or SB you have to think far more carefully as a good player will be calling your shoves wider than you will probably like.

    I think there are a couple of points to look at on your original chart. I think that you have set the edges too high. You really only need a 0.1 edge for most decisions but this can be reduced as you lose chips and therefore doubling up is more important that having an edge. If you are about to be hit by the blinds a negative edge can even be used.

    I also think that your calling ranges for poor players are a little high. I normally expect 20% for 8bbs and increase or reduce it accordingly i.e. 15% for 12bbs and 24% for 5bbs. People will tighten up from an UTG shove with 10bbs and they will expect a LP 5bb shove to be wider.

    Once you have these figures you can use them to separate good players and bad players though. As you now know exactly what a good player will be shoving, you can then work out what your calling range should be.

    I do like your approach here though and I am trying to work out how the figure can be manipulated further. I hope this helps though.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Greg Jones - PBJ shove chart into bad AND good players

    Thanks guys,

    My way of thinking was based on Greg's videos where he says a bad BB player is only likely to call a 10bb shove from BTN/SB with 20-30% range, whereas a good BB player, who knows that we, as a good player, are shoving wide, will call wider at 30-40%.

    As a consequence, I thought it would be useful to develop two strategies for shoving into bad BB players and good BB players.

    The point re: the SB is noted, but I have left this at 11% calling range, as a "safe" variable.

    As for the edges used, I based these around the 0.15 mark, as Greg recommended, and made the edge higher when shoving 12bb. I also included a -EV edge when shoving nearer UTG, as Wiz doesn't take account of the blind that is about to hit you.

    I think that there must be a way to work out a good chart for shoving into good and bad players - because we should shove wider into bad players and tighter into good players.

    I think what we need to work out therefore, and let's just deal with CO/BTN/SB, at this stage, is:

    a) What is a BAD BB player's calling range if we shove 10BB (and 7.5 and 5bb) from the CO (and then BTN and SB);

    b) What is a GOOD player's calling range if we shove 10BB (and 7.5 and 5bb) from the CO (and then BTN and SB); and

    c) What edges should we take for each of these positions and no. of BBs.

    Once we can get this information together, I think we will be able to put together a pretty decent PBJ chart for shoving into good and bad BB players.

    Perhaps Greg might also be able to help out with his thoughts if he reads this?

    This is such a crucial part of late stage SNG play, we need to nail this and make as much of a rock solid sheet push sheet as we can.

    It would be great if you guys could have a think and come up with suggestions for the above 2 questions.

    Below is a table you can perhaps us and copy in your suggested answers:

    Position Blinds Shoved Edge Bad Player Calling Range Good Player Calling Range (knows we are good).

    CO 10BB

    SB 10BB

    BTN 10BB

    In the meantime, I will have another think and get back to Wiz.

    Cheers guys,

  5. #5

    Default Re: Greg Jones - PBJ shove chart into bad AND good players

    Quote Originally Posted by theylimpJTPMOTW View Post
    I have been trying to get my head around a chart as well, and have not completed it yet, BUT when I do complete it I was going to filter hem to abount of players, eff blind stacks and positions and see how my chart holds up against my perceived ranges and actual hand ranges.
    i expect that the chart will be a constantly evolving process, as you tweak ranges, the games change (and obviously as you climb higher stakes )
    Is this 9 man? i personally think your edges are quite high (but that is kinda personal preference) i also think your good player call range is quite high, especially from CO with 10+bb (on the 8bb, you have good players calling wider than from the button?)

    any way I will finish my chart over next few days, and then happy to compare and discuss if you want?
    Yep - good spot - there is an error on the 8bb shove - will amend.

    And yes, would be happy to compare and discuss charts - I think it would be a useful process.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Greg Jones - PBJ shove chart into bad AND good players

    I am sorry but I dont think I explained myself very well in my first post.

    I think you are too focused on how the BB is playing here. If you are going to shove from the CO you have 3 players to beat and not just the BB. If you shove a range appropriate for the BB you will probably shove wide as you have some good fold equity. However, if the players in the Btn and SB are good players they will also be calling your shoves wider than you want and therefore, over time, you will not be shoving profitably.

    That being said the ranges that you are developing are really interesting and will be worth looking at. I like what they limp said about using HEM to interogate the numbers and see how well they hold up.

    However, I feel that one of the best things about Zeros PBJ is the simplicity. It provides some easy and quick ranges that you can use in any situation. If you are looking to add these ranges you will have to add 4 combinations from the Btn (BB=Good SB= Good, BB=Good SB=Bad, BB=Bad SB=Good, BB=Bad SB=Bad) and 9 from the CO.

    Therefore, I would recommend initally you spend the time on your combined Good and Bad PBJ and then working on your calling ranges for good and bad players. This still means that you will be working from 3 charts which is not an easy skill to master. Once you have nailed that I think you will be better placed to focus on shoving ranges against these various combinations.

    The one place that you can adjust your shoving range, depening on the skill of your opponent, is in the SB. I am sure this is covered in one of the later videos in the series. It is important to remember that TAG players are not always good players. A lot of TAGs have worked out the basics but they struggle making the correct adjustments.

    I really like the way that you are approching all of this though. This is some really interesting stuff and I am sure at the higher stakes this is exactly the approach that a lot of the best players use. If you are enjoying the ABC series I would recommend that you nail the basics down first as it is still a profitable system and it will give you a really good grounding.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Greg Jones - PBJ shove chart into bad AND good players

    Hey Tallscottuk -

    Thanks for another excellent reply (and congrats on winning Greg's protege contest!).

    I take your point re: the small blind and that my idea for a "good player/bad player" chart does not consider whether the SB is a good or bad player.

    However, I wonder, whether it is safe to assume, (for the purposes of developing this chart) and at the low stakes, that the SB will be on a fairly static range (as Greg recommends, around 11%), given the SB is aware that the BB is still to act?

    So yes, I am focusing on how the BB is playing here, but I think if I consider too much how the SB is going to play (eg, if I'm shoving from the BTN), it will be rather difficult to develop a chart - as you said, there are a number of different combinations for good BB, bad SB, etc etc.

    But I guess my ultimate point is, if we are only considering the BB, wouldn't this be more profitable to have a PBJ sheet that accounts for good and bad BB players? (Instead of just having a general one, that assumes the BB is a bad player?)

    It is never going to be perfect, but it could work - in particular, when shoving from the SB into a good player, Greg recommends a 65% shove range, regardless of whether you are 10bb or 5bb effective stack. However, his PBJ sheet only deals with what to shove into a bad player, which is a much wider range (I do wonder how useful the 65% sb shove range will be at the micro stakes though and worry that we could be missing value when we don't, eg, shove ATC when 5bb from the SB - because the microstakes BB doesn't understand what we are doing and isn't adjusting).

    I feel like we are on the edge of developing something very useful, and it just needs a bit more thought as to how to get this down on paper. Once we have nailed the pushing charts, then we can work on the calling charts.

    What I still need clarity on though is what the BB's calling range would be, depending on where we are shoving from - but I guess that is the key unknown! If we knew what the BB's exact calling range was every time we shoved, we would play perfect ICM poker and would be rather successful over time....!!

    I'm going to keep working on this - I'll adjust the edges down slightly and really work on assessing appropriate BB calling ranges.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Greg Jones - PBJ shove chart into bad AND good players

    Quote Originally Posted by pagination1 View Post

    But I guess my ultimate point is, if we are only considering the BB, wouldn't this be more profitable to have a PBJ sheet that accounts for good and bad BB players? (Instead of just having a general one, that assumes the BB is a bad player?)
    Rather than assume that you are playing good players or bad players your PBJ should give you ranges to shove against all players no matter who is sitting where. It therefore automatically accounts for both and the ranges given are an excellent starting point. At micro and low stakes this is more than enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by pagination1 View Post
    It is never going to be perfect, but it could work - in particular, when shoving from the SB into a good player, Greg recommends a 65% shove range, regardless of whether you are 10bb or 5bb effective stack. However, his PBJ sheet only deals with what to shove into a bad player, which is a much wider range (I do wonder how useful the 65% sb shove range will be at the micro stakes though and worry that we could be missing value when we don't, eg, shove ATC when 5bb from the SB - because the microstakes BB doesn't understand what we are doing and isn't adjusting).
    If a good player is not able to adjust then he is a bad player and you should be treating him as such and shoving 100%. It is important to remember that the 100% shove is such a good move because you have fold equity especially against bad players who do not call wide enough. However, good players remove most of this fold equity by calling good player SB shoves much wider.

    The only way to attack a good player sitting in the BB who has correctly adjusted is to reduce your range. Of course (although you will not see much of this in the micros) good players will then readjust and call you tighter again. This quickly becomes a never ending cycle and therefore you should resort to Nash when you think that this is happening. Nash is unexploitable but not very profitable.

    I still strongly recommend that you try to build a basic PBJ chart and then work on calling ranges for both good and bad players seperately. This will give you more than enough strong ranges to win and micro and low stakes.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Greg Jones - PBJ shove chart into bad AND good players

    Ok guys, I've been working on this for most of the day - both the shoving sheet into both good and players and also a calling sheet. The calling sheet assumes we are calling in the BB on the basis that the shover is:

    1) A bad villain, who isn't shoving wide enough;
    2) A good villain, who we know is shoving wider (as per our PBJ chart) and thus we have to adjust our calling ranges accordingly (ie, wider as we know the good villain is shoving wider).

    In the pushing chart, I have reduced the edge and made more realistic calling ranges (I think for both the good and bad BB players).

    As TallscotUK pointed out, this chart assumes the SB is an average player, with a calling range of between 11-13% - at this stage, I think it would be too complicated to make a chart based on whether bb is good and sb is bad, or bb is good and sb is good etc etc. Whilst this is an important consideration, I think that this chart, split between good and bad players, will be more profitable than the "standard" PBJ chart which Greg talks about, ie assuming BB is average bad player - although if I am wrong, please tell me - I am learning!

    Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated - this is quite exhausting - have spent about 4 hours (perhaps I should have actually been working - oops) today on this!

    If Greg is reading this, it would be great to have his comments.

    Cheers guys,

    Nick

    Ps - tallscotUK - I've just read your latest post as I completed typing the above - I took what you said into consideration and I focused on ranges for bad players first. I then focused on calling ranges for good players and added this to the chart.

    As you rightly say, responding to my point, I think the 65% shove range in the Sb, whether you are 10bb or 5bb has limited application in the micros, as the BB probably won't adjust - therefore I advocate sticking with the ATC, as you say.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  10. #10

    Default Re: Greg Jones - PBJ shove chart into bad AND good players

    Just a quick thought on my "calling chart" against good players - and I'm just remembering something Greg said in his ABC series - we shouldn't be calling wider than 40%, right? As calling any more than this isn't profitable - even if, eg, we know the SB is shoving 5bb with ATC?

    If so, then I will need to amend the calling sheet, which, eg, when a good SB, 5bb, is shoving ATC, says we should call with 69.5%. I think this is wrong?

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Greg Jones - PBJ shove chart into bad AND good players

    Quote Originally Posted by pagination1 View Post
    Just a quick thought on my "calling chart" against good players - and I'm just remembering something Greg said in his ABC series - we shouldn't be calling wider than 40%, right? As calling any more than this isn't profitable - even if, eg, we know the SB is shoving 5bb with ATC?

    If so, then I will need to amend the calling sheet, which, eg, when a good SB, 5bb, is shoving ATC, says we should call with 69.5%. I think this is wrong?
    I am just looking at your sheet in more detail (the edges look good) but I can answer this one quickly.

    If the Btn shoves with 5bbs and the SB folds then the odds you are being offered justifies the wide call:

    When the action gets to you the pot will have 1 bb + 1/2 bb (from the SB) + 5bb from the Btn shove so 6.5bbs.

    To call you will need to put in 4bbs and therefore you are being offered odds of 61% to make the call.

    As a good player should be shoving 100% of hands from the SB with only 5bb (assuming that they are not starting to adjust) then you can call with approx 70% of your holdings to be profitable.

    However, if they suspect you are going to call that wide then they will be shoving tighter and therefore you have to adjust. This level of adjustment happens at all levels including the micros. At higher levels people adjust far further than this but I would just use nash if you think you have to. You have to play a good few hands against specific opponents for the adjustments to start.

    It has been a while since I last watched the vids so I cant remember all the details but this is why you can call wide from good players in the SB with short stacks.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Greg Jones - PBJ shove chart into bad AND good players

    Thanks very much for your comments - it makes sense that you can call a 5bb SB shove wider than 40%, if they are a good player shoving ATC.

    I also look forward to any comments you have on the PBJ sheet. I think I will arrange some coaching with Greg - I really want to nail this.

    I now need to develop a bubble shoving chart - this is a little harder to follow because of stack dynamics, but I should be able to develop some useful pivot points and can tighten/loosen when appropriate.

 

 

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